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== Checking up on Ngng ==
== Checking up on Ngng ==
Hey Ngng, how you been? I occasionally still check the wiki and think it's awesome that you're still working on it and maintaining it. Is there anything in particular that you're currently working on or are you mostly just maintaining it nowadays? --[[User:SHunter|SHunter]] ([[User talk:SHunter|talk]]) 11:14, 29 June 2020 (GMT-5)
Hey Ngng, how you been? I occasionally still check the wiki and think it's awesome that you're still working on it and maintaining it. Is there anything in particular that you're currently working on or are you mostly just maintaining it nowadays? --[[User:SHunter|SHunter]] ([[User talk:SHunter|talk]]) 11:14, 29 June 2020 (GMT-5)
:Oh, hey! I'm okay, thank you! Haven't seen you in a while, hope you're also doing fine in this big inhospitable world! I'm reduced to a casual guest here, always thinking to myself: soon I'll definitely find the time to update games from redump.org or add this category or do that. The time I never seem to be able to find. I'm doing a personal project for more than a year now (on top of other personal projects), which probably contributes to my laziness. One day, though, I'll rise from the depths of my self deception and do something useful here, too (hopefully)... :) --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 06:11, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Yeah it's been a while. I remember making icons for the wiki during my senior year in high school then I got really busy in life (in a good way). Now I'm about to graduate from college next semester. I'm also in the same boat, I got lots of personal projects some of which I'm doing so I can land a good job. This wiki is in a pretty good state rn imo. I occasionally find myself running some games in PCSX2 and checking the wiki to fix bugs. PCSX2 has come a long way. In all the games I own there are only minor visual bugs. I really would like to see more progress and I'd like to help on the wiki some too but I guess we're all kinda busy atm. Anyways I got some free time now and thought I would contribute to the wiki and PCSX2 as I play through some games I haven't played in a while. Keep up the good work! --[[User:SHunter|SHunter]] ([[User talk:SHunter|talk]]) 02:03, 30 June 2020 (GMT-5)
:I'm really glad you're doing good! We need more good news! I didn't play a PS2 game in years :-\ (it's always either Doom or newer PC games for me nowadays, guess I was always a doomer). --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 17:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Also I got an idea for another tag/category. With the issues maybe there should be a tag for which stable version of PCSX2 the issue was last verified on. That way it'll be easier to track which issues can be removed or marked as fixed. As many issues can now be removed or archived with the solution being to use the latest stable version of PCSX2. --[[User:SHunter|SHunter]] ([[User talk:SHunter|talk]]) 02:15, 30 June 2020 (GMT-5)
:You mean like "fully playable on 1.6.0 stable"? If you want to do it, go ahead! (but any new tag may require a lot of work to update hundreds of games). --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 17:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
That's a good idea for a tag as well. What I meant was another field for issues which says what version of PCSX2 the issue was tested on. On the Spy Hunter page for example most of those issues don't exist on 1.6 stable. I think it's only worth keeping issues which still exist on the latest stable version. The extra field will be useful to bug testers since it'll be easier to keep track of which bugs still exist and are reproducible. I will give it a shot later to update the issues template. It'd be nice if the wiki came with automated tools, I guess I'd have to write a bot to update all the games. --[[User:SHunter|SHunter]] ([[User talk:SHunter|talk]]) 08:27, 02 July 2020 (GMT-5)
:Oh, I got it. Yep, this change is pretty minor and very easy to implement and could be useful as well. I'd give you one of my bots to dissect but as always in such cases they've been written fast and dirty. I guess there must be a source of some universal bot on the net, but I always preferred my own sources. Oh, and "fixed" issues could still be useful, and even are entertaining in a way in my opinion. --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 06:20, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
An archive of issues consisting of issues which are fixed without any workarounds would be nice. It'd be interesting to look at all the bugs that games used to have in previous builds. It would be helpful to future emulator writers as well. I'll look around for a universal bot but I'll probably end up writing my own bot when I get around to it. --[[User:SHunter|SHunter]] ([[User talk:SHunter|talk]]) 09:32, 06 July 2020 (GMT-5)
:"It'd be interesting to look at all the bugs that games used to have in previous builds" -- my thoughts exactly. Holler if you need any help! :) --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 07:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
== Discussion on the wiki itself ==
Hello Ngng,
I've been looking into making easier ways for users and others to give information, results, issues and more.
Problem is that i've seen alot of concern from users that the wiki isn't consistent or hard to edit or other reasons.
Personally, i have had the same issues wherein that the markdown style is clunky and hard to use, i just want to insert my results and make quick edits.
Even you yourself are undo'ing other people stuff for design or template decisions, not to fault you.
The wiki itself to me looks ugly, and the team expressed that you handle the wiki for the majority but not really care about it (or how i interpreted it).
My points:
- Wiki style should be overhauled (current style is not good) (example of github style made by someone else: https://prnt.sc/u70wx8)
- Be more accessible to everyone to use and see. (https://prnt.sc/u70ydq or https://prnt.sc/u71a8u people don't like having a blob of text but on the other side some don't like to expand stuff either)
- Have a clear set of rules of the way you best use it (that way it's easier to maintain and have a good bar for quality standards)
- Lots of missing info / wrong info (From the CRCs to pages having question marks)
- Open for suggestions, improvements..
Thank you,
RedDevilus
:Hi! You have a valid point about some test cases looking ugly. They do really look ugly when there's a ton of information squeezed into narrow columns never intended to contain such information in the first place. This is how they [[Drakan: The Ancients' Gates|looked at the start]]: two or three lines per case and minimum additional information, I never wanted for them to be walls of texts. Unfortunately I'm not a person who has time/desire to clear all user inputs, besides I do not see it as ugly even with contaminated/swelled test cases. The nature of wikis is such that they always contain a healthy amount of chaos as is the nature of people sometimes overcommitted to express themselves. And you never force people to contribute if they don't like to.
:I also have to disagree with you on the subject of Mediawiki markup. The test entry markup is dead simple: it's always 9 lines of information in each and every case. Your first picture is basically the same test entry, I can't detect this fundamental difference between the current entries and yours (except for the walls of text and droves of buttons). The wiki serves its purpose in any case: it provides the information to those anonymous internet users just want to start a game and play.
:Continuing on, I do care about the wiki, it's just probably not the way the team likes me to care. Let's say I'm not in it for the test cases and bug reports I'm more interested in collecting PS2 titles related information, besides it's been years and years and not one person really tried to share the responsibility (there were/are great contributors but none expressed a lasting desire to be a maintainer/housekeeper). Believe me you're not the first who approached with "a total overhaul" desire or "let's make this big change" proposition. Such things require a lot of time and stubbornness, most of those people did not possess/have. Would you like to take control and responsibility and maintain user-related input? You need to learn the wiki markup to a tee, some other stuff about wikis and to know/carefully weight your strengths before starting anything global. After all there are about 5000 game titles here and many have test entries making it an awful lot of work to implement some changes.  --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 19:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I was having some discussion for the wiki:
Right now the wiki marks issues as [Not an issue] [Fixed] [Active] while from a developer standpoint [Not an issue] means not a bug but from an user perspective it's too vague and seems very minor when it's possible when it isnt example if a game has weird effects either from upscaling or the wrong settings. I propose the use of [Workaround] or [Patched] where if you run a game with default settings the normal user sees problem(s) with the emulation. In this way it's easier to see if it's a bug from not enough accuracy, a regression or a visual problem to the user. Tl;dr In those situations [Fixed] = no more bug (i know there are exceptions like Full blending, but this is besides the point) [Active] = still a bug and [Patched] = issue but you can workaround it.
:"Not an issue" aka "Note" was created after I realized that some issues are really game-related bugs replicatable on original hardware, but removing them from the pages would rob users of very useful information. There was a period when I was removing "issues" arising from hacks and misconfiguration; but then my own knowledge had slowly eroded by changes in PCSX2; what was a hack at one time became a default option or was removed. I didn't start PCSX2 in long time so sometimes I can only guess. Other "non-issues" (for instance, bugs with MTVU on) are also very helpful as warnings. A user can quickly correct his configuration if he sees the note on a game page, saving him from fiddling with a game for hours. But if you see an "real fake" issue, please fix it, because my knowledge at this point is quite inferior.
:And I have to admit that I don't fully understand your proposition. Can you think of some examples? --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 17:42, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Examples it can range from shaking screen to problems with the texture to even the lightning. It's just to make it more obvious that [Not an issue] means that the user should ignore it because it's nitpicky but the 2nd meaning is that they have to change some settings. To give a situation: User has problem with a car game where the lights are broken, for the developers there is a workaround and is not deemed a bug, the only thing you have to do is change a setting like skipdraw or an upscaling fix or whatever but if he skims through it for him the issue is not fixed and is pretty major but either sees [Fixed] or [Not an issue]. That's why i want to separate it that [Not an issue] can mean two totally different aspects.
:I really tried to understand this, but I can't. As a surmise, are you tring to say that definition of non-issue is too broad right now and we should define what kind of "issues" should fall into this category? I can only agree with that, I just couldn't do it myself because of the reasons stated above. As far as my wanted it to be from the start:
* An issue is an undesirable game behavior which manifests itself with the default PCSX2 settings. The only settings changed from their defaults should have more compatible values (for example, full clamping instead of normal clamping). An issue should also be absent on the original PS2 hardware.
** A major issue prevents a game to be playable, completable or manifests itself as a crash of the emulator. This issue is often cannot be worked around (unavoidable).
** A serious issue detracts/distracts from the game experience in a way that may completely ruin its enjoyment. This issue may have a workaround.
** A minor issue is any other issue that "may annoy but never frustrates", or it could be a small visual artifact of no significance.
* An "non-issue" aka "note" is either a known game bug replicatable on the original PS2 hardware and stated here with workaround for users' convenience or an issue that is caused by a PCSX2 misconfiguration but commonly used without problems on other games.
:As for examples, I may not call this recent [https://wiki.pcsx2.net/index.php?title=Amplitude&curid=133&diff=95291&oldid=87226 issue] an issue at all (isn't full boot should be a default way to play?), but I didn't change it. Plus there's a problem with DirectX vs OGL and hardware vs software. People create issues active only in DirectX, but shouldn't they play in OGL by default or are DirectX issues also helpful? Same with hardware mode issues -- are they legit?
:I'd accept PCSX2 team decision here, if you have time, please address these questions to them. Although in my opinion every definition should be allowed for some leeway (we're not enforcers and not in the army here). --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 19:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
== Dividing Chinese language in the infobox into Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese ==
Hi Ngng,
I have recently joined this wiki but I used to edit other wikis outside PCSX2. I found that the language secction in the [[:Template:Infobox|infobox]] only have a single Chinese option instead of both Simplified Chinese (mainly only available in NTSC-C titles) and Traditional Chinese (mainly available in NTSC-J titles). Therefore, I would like to suggest adding two more language options (Simplified Chinese + Traditional Chinese) in the infobox, and deprecate the old Chinese value after all the games with this value has been changed.
I can change it myself but since you were the creator of that infobox, I would like to ask whether you have any concerns or I should not do this. I can provide more details if necessary as I have collected a few titles from these 2 languages/regions.
Regards, [[User:SiuMing|SiuMing]] ([[User talk:SiuMing|talk]]) 04:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
:Howdy! It's nice to see someone from the region with the less accurate data on the wiki. It's really hard to find a source of a good Asian PS2 info, I tried to complete and correct Korean data from the official Sony site, made a lousy job no doubt, but it's ever harder with Chinese.
:There's no separate Chinese regionbox template in the infobox, all Asian serials go to the NTSC-J regionbox (so no separate Taiwanese+Chinese). A separate template is relatively easy to add, but I'd advise against it for two reasons: (1) there aren't too many PS2 game titles with Traditional Chinese support to warrant its own regionbox (correct me if I'm wrong here) and (2) We could also add many more regions like Australia (different but compatible PAL type), Korea (NTSC-K), Brazil (PAL-M), even some European countries (like PAL-G, etc.), this would make it a fine mess. The current system is simple: North America (NTSC-U), Asia (NTSC-J) and the rest of the world (PAL), I'd like to keep it that way.
:Nevertheless, we can correct region box caption to address your concerns, so instead of "Region: NTSC-J" it would say "Region: NTSC-J/C/K" or "Region: NTSC (Asia)". Each serial can have a note (like this [[LuluRara vol.2: Powered by Ziller.net|Korean only title]] has notes "(Korea)"). What say you? --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 19:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
::I suggest only separating NTSC-C out from NTSC-J, and keep others like you said. The main reason the actual region-lock implemented on PS2 console. i.e. An NTSC-J machine cannot play NTSC-C games, vice versa.
::By the way, actually my discussion is more focusing on the language (those country flags) displayed in the infobox, since Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese usually are more considered as different languages. Some games provided only Simplified Chinese version, some games provided both. What do you think? :) [[User:SiuMing|SiuMing]] ([[User talk:SiuMing|talk]]) 09:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
:I don't see how adding a Traditional Chinese language flag icon could be a problem from any perspective. Should I add the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Republic_of_China.svg flag of Taiwan] for this? I, however, will not be able to correct existing articles because of the scarcity of information, my main source for the languages is redump and it doesn't have a lot of Asian discs, so if you can correct at least some articles, please do.
::Sure, I can help on this part after adding the flag for Traditional Chinese. I think either Taiwan flag / Hong Kong flag or a mix of them will do. [[User:SiuMing|SiuMing]] ([[User talk:SiuMing|talk]]) 15:23, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
:As for isolating NTSC-C to its own regionbox (despite a region-lock), I still don't see a necessity. There are only so many games in this region, and regionboxes do not have to follow Sony's footsteps. As I said before, I can alter the name to be more descriptive to avoid confusion. --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 18:48, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
:: I am okay to keep the current design. My main suggestion is the language (flag) part only indeed. But I believe it is always a good idea if the name is altered for avoiding confusion :) [[User:SiuMing|SiuMing]] ([[User talk:SiuMing|talk]]) 15:23, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
:Done and done. I added Taiwan flag if you want to mix it with HK flag, it's [[:File:Traditional Chinese.png|all yours]]. I also updated every game that had Chinese flag to have the Mainland China flag. In all probability, '''SLAJ/SCAJ''' serials are Taiwan/HK related and '''SCCS''' are simplified Chinese versions, but there are a number of totally different cases. If you have any questions, please holler! --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 16:54, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
::Thank you! [[User:SiuMing|SiuMing]] ([[User talk:SiuMing|talk]]) 03:56, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
:You're welcome! --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 05:52, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
== Dropdown styles. ==
I don't want the Wiki to have testcases like this:
https://i.imgur.com/996Cbc8.png
It's a problem when people put it in the comments section, which is why the dropdown sections exist. Unfortunately the button being ugly is sad, but not a reason to completely remove the section.
As an alternative solution, I've looked into different ways of adding the settings dropdown menu.
=== Method 1 ===
{{TestingHeader|OS=Windows}}
{{TestingEntry
|Status=2
|Region=NTSC-U
|OS=Windows 10 Pro x64 (build 19041)
|CPU=AMD Ryzen 5 3600 @ 3.60~4.20 GHz
|GPU=AMD Radeon R9 280 @ 3 GB
|Revision=v1.7.0 (dev- )
<spoiler show="Settings" hide="Hide">
* '''Speedhacks:'''
** EE Cyclerate: 0
** VU Cycle Stealing: 0
** mVU Flag Hack: ✓
** MTVU: ✓
</spoiler>
|Graphics=GSdx 1.2.0 AVX2
<spoiler show="Settings" hide="Hide">
* Renderer: Direct3D 11 (Hardware)
* Internal Resolution: 4x Native
* Texture Filtering: Bilinear (PS2)
* Anisotropic Filtering: Off
* CRC Hack Level: Automatic
* '''Shader Configuration:'''
** FXAA: ✓
** Shade Boost: 50/50/60
</spoiler>
|Sound=
* SPU2-X 2.0.0
* LilyPad 0.12.1
|Comments=BIOS: USA 2.30,
|Tester=Ryudo
}}
{{TestingFooter}}
=== Method 2 ===
{{TestingHeader|OS=Windows}}
{{TestingEntry
|Status=2
|Region=NTSC-U
|OS=Windows 10 Pro x64 (build 19041)
|CPU=AMD Ryzen 5 3600 @ 3.60~4.20 GHz
|GPU=AMD Radeon R9 280 @ 3 GB
|Revision=v1.7.0 (dev- )
<span class="mw-customtoggle-Revision">'''[Settings]'''</span>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-Revision">
* '''Speedhacks:'''
** EE Cyclerate: 0
** VU Cycle Stealing: 0
** mVU Flag Hack: ✓
** MTVU: ✓
</div>
|Graphics=GSdx 1.2.0 AVX2
<span class="mw-customtoggle-Graphics">'''[Settings]'''</span>
<div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" id="mw-customcollapsible-Graphics">
* Renderer: Direct3D 11 (Hardware)
* Internal Resolution: 4x Native
* Texture Filtering: Bilinear (PS2)
* Anisotropic Filtering: Off
* CRC Hack Level: Automatic
* '''Shader Configuration:'''
** FXAA: ✓
** Shade Boost: 50/50/60
</div>
|Sound=
* SPU2-X 2.0.0
* LilyPad 0.12.1
|Comments=BIOS: USA 2.30,
|Tester=Ryudo
}}
{{TestingFooter}}
=== Method 3 ===
{{TestingHeader|OS=Windows}}
{{TestingEntry
|Status=2
|Region=NTSC-U
|OS=Windows 10 Pro x64 (build 19041)
|CPU=AMD Ryzen 5 3600 @ 3.60~4.20 GHz
|GPU=AMD Radeon R9 280 @ 3 GB
|Revision=v1.7.0 (dev- )
<div class="toccolours mw-collapsible mw-collapsed">
<div style="font-weight:bold;">Settings</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible-content">
* '''Speedhacks:'''
** EE Cyclerate: 0
** VU Cycle Stealing: 0
** mVU Flag Hack: ✓
** MTVU: ✓
</div>
|Graphics=GSdx 1.2.0 AVX2
<div class="toccolours mw-collapsible mw-collapsed">
<div style="font-weight:bold;">Settings</div>
<div class="mw-collapsible-content">
* Renderer: Direct3D 11 (Hardware)
* Internal Resolution: 4x Native
* Texture Filtering: Bilinear (PS2)
* Anisotropic Filtering: Off
* CRC Hack Level: Automatic
* '''Shader Configuration:'''
** FXAA: ✓
** Shade Boost: 50/50/60
</div>
|Sound=
* SPU2-X 2.0.0
* LilyPad 0.12.1
|Comments=BIOS: USA 2.30,
|Tester=Ryudo
}}
{{TestingFooter}}
=== Method 4 ===
This is an older style I used to use, before the dropdown menus existed:
{{TestingHeader|OS=Windows}}
{{TestingEntry
|Status=2
|Region=NTSC-U
|OS=Windows 7 Ultimate x64 (SP1)
|CPU=Intel Core i5-4670K @ 3.40 GHz
|GPU=AMD Radeon R9 280 @ 3 GB
|Revision=
1.3.1-1578-g20e36f8
<small style="font-size:10px;">
:<b>Speedhacks</b>
* EEC: 0 & VUCS: 0
* mVU Flag: ON
* MTVU: ON
</small>
|Graphics=
GSdx 1.0.0 AVX2
<small style="font-size:10px;">
* D3D11 Hardware
* Resolution: 4x Native
* Enable FXAA: ON
* FPS: 60/60
</small>
|Sound=
* SPU2-X 2.0.0
<small style="font-size:10px;">
:* Module: XAudio2
:* Latency: 150ms
:* Sync Mode: TimeStretch
</small>
* LilyPad 0.11.0
|Comments=BIOS: USA 2.30, Runs very good. I noticed a few slowdowns in the game, but this was mostly during massive fights only when a lot of stuff was going on in the screen. 
|Tester=Ryudo
}}
{{TestingFooter}}
Method 2 is the cleanest looking one to me, it has no button nor any borders, while still maintaining a clean looking setup. -- [[User:Ryudo|Ryudo]] ([[User talk:Ryudo|talk]]) 09:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
:"I don't want the Wiki to have testcases like this: https://i.imgur.com/996Cbc8.png" -- Me neither, that's why I added a note about walls of text. Besides even this example looks better than a lot of text in the narrow "Graphics" column (which is encouraged now by the "How to contribute" article). I'm committed ''NOT'' to remove/alter current and future test entries containing those buttons, you seem to like, I just don't want to encourage people to use them. Let's keep my revision and see what will happen. If the walls of text will become bigger and messier than it will be an indication to alter the article again. Deal? --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 10:35, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
== SLAJ-25005: [[World Soccer Winning Eleven 6 International]] ==
I have taken a [https://i.imgur.com/lUeO2tk.jpeg photo] of it. I will also submit it to redump.org once I have the account and permission. I have changed it again. If you think it is still inappropriate, please feel free to undo my changes. --[[User:SiuMing|SiuMing]] ([[User talk:SiuMing|talk]]) 16:10, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
:Thank you! I'm just a bit overprotective when it comes to accepting nomenclature changes, I always try to verify it. It's not the first time though that the Internet is wrong, and probably will not be the last. :\ --[[User:Ngng|Ngng]] ([[User talk:Ngng|talk]]) 18:01, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
Ngng
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